“The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost…” — Liu Cixin, The Dark Forest
The Fermi Paradox and a Dangerous Silence
When we look to the stars, we often do so with hope—hope that we are not alone, that somewhere out there, intelligence has bloomed like it has here on Earth. We search for signals, we send out our own, and we dream of first contact. But what if our yearning for connection is a dangerous delusion?
Enter the Dark Forest Theory—a chilling solution to the Fermi Paradox, which highlights the contradiction between the high probability of extraterrestrial civilizations existing and the lack of contact with such civilizations. The Dark Forest Theory is a compelling hypothesis that offers a unique perspective on why we haven’t encountered extraterrestrial civilizations. It was popularized by Liu Cixin’s science fiction novel The Dark Forest, the second book in the Three-Body Problem trilogy.
The theory suggests that the reason we haven’t heard from anyone is not because they don’t exist, but because they are deliberately staying silent. It suggests our silence isn’t an accident. It might be the only thing keeping us alive.
The Logic of the Dark Forest
The central idea can be summarized as follows:
The Universe is a Dark Forest: In this analogy, the universe is likened to a dark forest where every civilization is a hunter. These hunters are quiet and cautious because they know that other hunters are also lurking in the shadows.
Survival is Paramount: Every civilization’s primary goal is survival. In a universe with limited resources and potential threats, other civilizations become competitors.
Communication is Dangerous: Any civilization that reveals its existence risks being discovered and potentially destroyed by other, more powerful civilizations. The reason is that civilizations cannot be certain of the intentions of others. This leads to a state of constant paranoia.
Preemptive Strike: In such an environment, the safest course of action is often a preemptive strike. If a civilization detects another, it may choose to destroy it first to eliminate any potential threat.
This mindset results in cosmic silence, not because life is absent, but because any noise could bring annihilation.
Therefore, the Dark Forest Theory posits that the apparent silence of the universe is due to other civilizations actively concealing themselves. Any civilization that makes its presence known, either through deliberate transmission or unintentional signals, exposes itself to grave danger.
This theory offers a bleak but plausible explanation for the Fermi Paradox. It suggests that instead of a universe teeming with friendly civilizations waiting to be contacted, we may live in a cosmic arena where survival depends on silence and concealment.
The implications of the Dark Forest Theory are profound:
For Humanity: It suggests that our attempts to contact extraterrestrial intelligence, such as sending out radio signals, may be incredibly foolish and dangerous. Instead of leading to peaceful contact, they might reveal our location to hostile civilizations.
For SETI: It implies that the search for extraterrestrial intelligence might be futile or even counterproductive. If other civilizations are following a policy of silence, we are unlikely to detect them.
For the Universe: It paints a picture of a universe that is far more dangerous and complex than we might have imagined. It suggests that the cosmos is not a friendly place but a deadly arena where only the most cautious and ruthless civilizations survive.
Should We Be Shouting into the Void?
Humanity hasn’t been quiet. From the Arecibo Message in 1974 to the Voyager Golden Records still drifting through interstellar space, we’ve been announcing ourselves to the universe for decades.
Not everyone thinks this is wise. The late Stephen Hawking warned that actively contacting aliens might be catastrophic—comparing it to the Native Americans’ first contact with Columbus.
And yet, some scientists argue that the cat is already out of the bag: Earth has been emitting detectable radio signals since the early 20th century. If someone’s listening, they may already know we’re here.
Are We Projecting Ourselves onto the Cosmos?
Fig.1: Are we fearing ourselves in alien form?
The Dark Forest Theory also reveals something about us. It suggests that alien civilizations might be paranoid and violent because that’s what we would be. Human history is full of examples of exploration ending in exploitation. If we assume others think like us, then silence—or preemptive hostility—makes sense.
What Should Humanity Do?
If the Dark Forest Theory is correct, we face a paradox: to explore space and find others may be to endanger ourselves. Should we retreat into radio silence, cease our transmissions, and go dark?
Oris silence just another kind of defeat—a surrender to fear?
There’s no consensus. Some advocate for METI (Messaging to Extra-Terrestrial Intelligences) moratoriums (pausing active messaging), while others believe diplomacy is still possible—if approached carefully. Still, many agree on one point: if we do find someone out there, we must tread carefully. The stakes couldn’t be higher.
Conclusion: A Forest Full of Secrets
The Dark Forest Theory is a sobering reminder of the potential perils of interstellar contact. It suggests that the silence of the universe may not be evidence of the absence of life, but rather a warning of its dangerous nature.
The universe may not be empty—it may simply be afraid. If the Dark Forest Theory holds any truth, then perhaps we’ve misinterpreted the silence of space. It isn’t indifference. It may be self-preservation.
When you hear “Men in Black,” your mind probably jumps to Hollywood’s cool agents in black suits, neuralyzers in hand, keeping Earth safe from rogue aliens. But the real-world phenomenon is far stranger—and far more unsettling. For decades, witnesses have reported encounters with bizarre black-suited figures who arrive not with charm and quips, but with chilling warnings, robotic behavior, and the uncanny sense that they are not human at all.
So who—or what—are the Men in Black (MIB)? Government agents? Extraterrestrials? Or something else entirely?
The MIB: Not Your Average Secret Agent
In the UFO and paranormal communities, Men in Black are typically described as:
Pale-skinned, mannequin-like individuals in outdated black suits.
Robotic in movement, speech, and demeanor.
Frequently appearing after UFO sightings or high-strangeness events.
Arriving in vintage or anachronistic vehicles that vanish without a trace.
Delivering eerie, emotionless warnings to “forget what you saw.”
Rather than blending in, their attempts to appear human often backfire. Eyewitnesses describe them as uncanny—as if something were wearing a human costume and failing to understand how humans behave.
These stories go back decades, with early reports such as the 1947 Maury Island incident and the 1950s claims of Albert K. Bender, who described his MIB visitors as glowing-eyed beings capable of vanishing into thin air.
But here’s where it gets bizarre.
The Interdimensional Enforcer Theory
What if the MIB aren’t from another planet—but another dimension?
This theory, sometimes called the Interdimensional Hypothesis (IDH), suggests that MIB are not government spooks or alien operatives, but entities that slip into our reality when someone gets too close to a cosmic truth. Their role? To contain leaks in the veil—to enforce the illusion.
In this view, MIB act as cosmic janitors, appearing when:
A witness sees through a glitch in reality.
A UFO encounter reveals a deeper dimensional rift.
An individual gains knowledge that is not meant for human minds.
These MIB are less like spies and more like reality editors—they remove, correct, or erase fragments of forbidden information.
Five Chilling Real-Life Encounters
1. Albert K. Bender and the Silencing of a UFO Researcher (1953)
Albert K. Bender, founder of the International Flying Saucer Bureau (IFSB), was one of the earliest and most vocal UFO researchers in the 1950s—until he abruptly shut down his organization and stopped speaking publicly.
What Happened?
Bender later revealed he had been visited by three Men in Black, who didn’t just intimidate him—they communicated telepathically, exuded a suffocating fear, and told him to stop researching UFOs “for his own good.”
He claimed they weren’t human at all, but instead hovered or glided across the floor, and emitted a glowing light. They didn’t just want him to stop—they made him physically ill, as if sapping his energy or life force.
Why It Matters:
Bender’s story introduced a new dimension to the MIB: not merely intimidation, but psychic interference and deep, unnatural fear. It’s one of the earliest cases suggesting the MIB may be paranormal or interdimensional beings, not human agents.
2. Paul Miller’s Encounter With Time Loss and MIB (1961)
An Air Force pilot, Paul Miller encountered a UFO while hunting with friends in North Dakota. They claimed to have shot at it, and Miller lost several hours.
What Happened?
The next day, two men in black suits appeared at his workplace. They seemed to know everything about the previous night’s incident—even though no one had reported it.
Their behavior was bizarre:
They gave veiled threats but smiled the whole time.
Their skin looked waxy, and their expressions didn’t match their words.
They departed, leaving Miller feeling “drained” and paranoid.
Why It Matters:
Miller’s MIB encounter adds precognitive knowledge, time distortion, and emotional manipulation to the pattern. These aren’t mere observers—they seem embedded in the timeline itself.
3. The Point Pleasant Flap and the Mothman Connection (1966–1967)
During the infamous Mothman sightings in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, dozens of residents reported visits from strange MIB figures—often arriving after people saw mysterious lights or the winged creature itself.
What Happened?
A local reporter named Mary Hyre was visited by a short man with long fingers, oversized glasses, and strange questions about her articles.
One MIB asked a witness for a glass of water, then stared at it like he didn’t understand what to do with it.
Others spoke in riddles, acted disoriented, vanished into thin air or drove away in outdated black Cadillacs that made no sound.
Why It Matters:
This cluster of MIB appearances coincided with paranormal chaos—UFOs, cryptids, strange phone calls, and psychic phenomena—suggesting the MIB might not be cleaning up just UFO sightings, but any high-strangeness events that threaten to pierce the veil of reality.
4. Dr. Herbert Hopkins and the Disappearing Coin (1976)
In one of the most chilling MIB cases on record, Maine physician Dr. Herbert Hopkins was studying a UFO abduction case when he received a phone call from a “representative of a UFO organization” asking to meet.
What Happened?
Minutes later, a man in a black suit arrived unnaturally quickly. He was bald and pale, with no eyebrows or eyelashes, and moved and spoke like a machine.
The man asked Hopkins to remove a coin from his pocket, look at it, and keep watching. To Hopkins’ shock, the coin faded into nothingness—vanished from existence.
Then the MIB said: “Neither you nor anyone else on this planet will ever see that coin again.” He then warned Hopkins to destroy all of his UFO research… which Hopkins did.
Why It Matters:
This case suggests reality manipulation, teleportation, or some dimensional warping—classic markers of an interdimensional enforcer rather than a flesh-and-blood agent.
5. The Niagara Falls Surveillance Camera Footage (2008)
At a hotel near Niagara Falls, a bellhop who had recently witnessed a UFO reported being harassed by two men in black suits. Shortly after, security footage showed two tall men entering the lobby—hairless, identical in appearance, and deeply unsettling to staff.
What Happened?
Witnesses said:
They had no facial hair, no eyebrows or eyelashes.
Their skin looked artificial.
Their suits were identical, down to the creases and folds.
They didn’t blink and moved in perfect sync.
No one could explain how they got into the building. Security footage captured their arrival, but no footage of them leaving ever surfaced.
Why It Matters:
This case is one of the few to include video evidence. While some skeptics dismiss it as a prank or performance, the unnerving details—especially their synchronized movements—are consistent with dozens of other accounts.
Echoes Across Space and Time
What do these cases have in common?
Uncanny appearance and behavior
Preternatural knowledge of events
Reality manipulation or psychic interference
Association with UFOs, time anomalies, or high strangeness
Each case on its own is eerie. Together, they paint a picture of beings that aren’t quite human or real in the conventional sense. Whether they’re watchers, enforcers, tricksters, or dimensional clean-up crews, their presence suggests something much larger at work—an intelligence working to keep our reality curated, controlled, and contained.
But why?
And what happens when we dig too deep?
The Trickster Element: Agents of Absurdity?
Not all MIB encounters are grim. Some border on absurd, as if the visitor is playing a cosmic prank. Witnesses report MIB struggling to eat Jell-O, failing to understand money, or asking bizarre questions like, “What is your time?” instead of “What time is it?”
This behavior mirrors the archetype of the Trickster, a being from myth and folklore who bends rules, toys with perception, and serves as a chaotic agent of transformation.
In this interpretation, MIB might not be enforcers at all. They could be dimensional interlopers who enjoy destabilizing our sense of normalcy, reminding us that the world is far stranger than we think.
Glitches in the Matrix: Are We Living in a Controlled Reality?
Another disturbing possibility is that the MIB appear when someone uncovers a flaw in the simulation. Think of The Matrix with less kung fu and more existential dread.
The Simulation Hypothesis proposes that we live inside a programmed reality. When someone witnesses something that shouldn’t exist—a UFO, a time slip, a Mandela Effect anomaly—the MIB arrive like virus scanners, deleting the corrupted data and resetting the simulation.
This overlaps with Gnostic Cosmology, where hidden entities (archons or demiurges) enforce ignorance and suppress spiritual awakening. Are the MIB the modern avatars of these ancient jailers?
Final Thoughts: Guardians, Glitches, or Gatekeepers?
There are many ways to interpret the Men in Black:
Government Agents silencing inconvenient witnesses.
Extraterrestrials using android-like avatars to manage contact.
Interdimensional Enforcers editing reality and protecting cosmic secrets.
Trickster Beings who blur the line between paranormal and performance art.
Simulation Cleaners keeping the illusion running smoothly.
Regardless of the origin, one thing is clear: the MIB aren’t going away. While reports have become rarer in the age of digital surveillance, some believe they’ve evolved—operating now through digital means, hacking data, scrambling memories, and manipulating information from behind screens instead of showing up in person.
So next time you see a glitch in the sky, or reality bends in a way you can’t explain… keep an eye out for the tall, pale man in the black suit.
The idea that UFOs (Unidentified Flying Objects) and UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) could be supernatural entities rather than advanced technology, whether terrestrial or extraterrestrial, is an alternative hypothesis that has been proposed by some religious scholars, paranormal researchers, and even a few scientists.
However, there is little to no scientific evidence to support this claim. Let’s break it down logically.
The Demonic UFO Hypothesis
According to this alternative theory, UFOs/UAPs are not spacecraft but manifestations of fallen angels (demons) deceiving humanity. These entities supposedly masquerade as extraterrestrials to shift human belief away from God or to control us. Some interpretations link modern UFO encounters to historical accounts of supernatural beings (e.g., biblical angels, djinn, fae folklore). The idea suggests a spiritual war, with demons tricking humanity into believing in false alien gods. This view is held chiefly by some Christian eschatologists and paranormal researchers, not mainstream scientists.
UFOs: The Official Explanation
From an objective standpoint, the most well-documented UFO/UAP encounters (such as the Pentagon 2021 UAP report) suggest these are physical aerial phenomena, not supernatural manifestations. The possible explanations include:
Military technology (experimental aircraft, advanced drones)
Extraterrestrial visitors (the more traditional UFO hypothesis)
The U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and NASA have been investigating UAPs, but their reports have not supported supernatural claims.
Why has the Demonic UFO Hypothesis gained popularity recently?
Some researchers (like Jacques Vallée, a prominent UFOlogist) have noted parallels between UFO sightings and historical folklore:
1. Ancient Accounts
Biblical and medieval accounts describe shining, winged beings descending from the sky, bringing messages to humans.
Demonic encounters often involve night-time visitations, paralysis, missing time, and visions—features common in alien abduction reports.
The Book of Enoch (an ancient Jewish text not considered canonical scripture by most present Jewish or Christian church bodies) speaks of the Watchers, fallen angels who descended from heaven—similar to theories about ancient alien visitors.
Modern UFO Parallels
Nordic Aliens (Tall Whites) resemble angelic descriptions—radiant beings delivering messages of peace and wisdom.
Grey Alienabduction narratives often include telepathic communication, paralysis, and an overwhelming sense of powerlessness, which match descriptions of demonic oppression.
Orbs and glowing lights seen in UFO encounters mirror historical descriptions of angelic appearances and demonic manifestations.
Appear mysteriously, sometimes emerging from glowing portals.
Kidnap humans, often returning them with missing time or altered memories.
Communicate telepathically or through cryptic riddles.
Sometimes experiment on or “bless” people in ways that resemble medical procedures.
Modern UFO Parallels
Alien abduction stories often involve tiny, humanoid beings that abduct humans, perform bizarre medical tests, and return them with no clear memory.
Missing time and memory distortion in alien encounters mirror accounts of fairy abductions.
In folklore, those taken by the fae often return “different”—similar to how alien abductees describe feeling changed or enlightened after their experiences.
3. Chariots of the Gods (from the title of Erich von Däniken’s 1968 book)
Ancient texts and mythology describe flying vehicles, which some interpret as UFOs.
In the Mahābhārata and the Ramayana(Hindu epics), flying “vimanas” are described as advanced flying machines used by gods.
Ezekiel’s Vision (Biblical Old Testament) describes a flying, glowing craft with wheels spinning within wheels, similar to modern UFO sightings.
Modern UFO Parallels
Many UFOs appear spinning, glowing, or having a structured design, similar to ancient descriptions of divine chariots.
Some ancient astronaut theorists suggest that myths of divine vehicles might be early misinterpretations of alien spacecraft.
4. Paranormal High Strangeness: Shadow People, Poltergeists, and UAPs
Paranormal encounters (ghost sightings, poltergeists, and shadow figures) share similarities with UFO sightings in terms of:
People experiencing visions, voices, and sudden paralysis.
Modern UFO Parallels
UFO witnesses frequently report electrical malfunctions, which mirror disturbances in haunted locations.
Shadow people or vague figures observed in paranormal encounters sometimes resemble alien Men in Black (or MIBs) reports.
Possible Explanations of Unexplained UFO/UAP Reports
There is no empirical scientific evidence that UAPs are demonic entities. Scientific studies of UFOs focus on measurable physical evidence (radar, infrared, eyewitness accounts). The Pentagon’s UAP reports (2021-2024) have documented unknown aerial phenomena but have never linked them to supernatural causes. Psychological and neurological research suggests altered states of consciousness may explain many paranormal experiences.
These experiences could be due to:
Psychological & Neurological Factors: Sleep paralysis, hypnagogic hallucinations, or temporal lobe activity might explain many encounters.
Interdimensional Theory: Some believe these entities could be ultraterrestrials (beings from another dimension rather than another planet).
A Controlled Experiment: Some Zoo Hypothesis believers suggest that a superior intelligence may “present itself” differently to different civilizations based on cultural context.
Cultural interpretations: Some researchers, including Jacques Vallée, argue that supernatural events and UFO experiences may be different cultural interpretations of the same underlying phenomenon. If UFOs have been seen throughout history, their appearance and behavior may be shaped by cultural expectations. While modern sightings align with technology, past accounts framed similar experiences as spiritual or supernatural.
Further reading about the Demonic UFO Hypothesis
In-depth studies about the demonic deception hypothesis have been written by:
Daniel O’Connor: The First and Last Deception: Aliens, UFOs, AI, and the Return of Eden’s Demise presents a thought-provoking exploration of contemporary phenomena—such as claims of extraterrestrial life, unidentified flying objects (UFOs), and advancements in artificial intelligence (AI)—through a theological lens. O’Connor posits that these elements are modern manifestations of deception, echoing the biblical narrative of humanity’s fall in Eden. He suggests that just as Eve was misled by a non-human intelligence in the form of a serpent, today’s society faces similar threats disguised as scientific and technological advancements.
The book has garnered attention and praise from various Catholic scholars and clergy. Dr. Michael Sirilla, Professor of Systematic and Dogmatic Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, describes it as “informative and pragmatic,” serving as “an extended spiritual meditation on the human condition, salvation history, the enemy’s wiles, and God’s goodness, truth, mercy, and power.” Fr. Chris Alar, MIC, commends the work for its fearless and thought-provoking approach to hot-button topics, noting O’Connor’s extensive research and academic grounding in the Catholic faith.
O’Connor’s central thesis challenges readers to reconsider widely accepted narratives about aliens and AI, framing them as potential tools of deception that could lead humanity away from spiritual truths. He emphasizes the importance of discernment and adherence to scriptural teachings in navigating these complex issues. The book is structured to guide readers through historical contexts, scriptural analyses, and contemporary developments, making a case for vigilance against what O’Connor terms the “Last Deception.”
Overall, The First and Last Deception offers a compelling examination of how ancient deceptions may resurface in modern guises, urging readers to remain spiritually vigilant in an era of rapid technological and ideological change.
Nick Redfern: Final Events and the Secret Government Group on Demonic UFOs and the Afterlifedelves into the intriguing narrative of a clandestine U.S. government group known as the “Collins Elite.” According to Redfern, this group concluded that Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs) are not extraterrestrial but demonic entities with malevolent intentions toward humanity. The book explores how the Collins Elite linked various elements—such as the activities of occult figures like Aleister Crowley and Jack Parsons, the 1947 Roswell incident, and reports of alien abductions—to a broader, sinister agenda aimed at harvesting human souls and ushering in apocalyptic events.
Redfern presents his findings through interviews with anonymous insiders and examination of declassified documents. While the book offers a compelling narrative, it is crucial to approach its claims with a critical mindset. The reliance on unnamed sources and the extraordinary nature of the assertions have led some readers and scholars to question the verifiability of the information. For instance, Dr. Michael Heiser, a scholar in biblical studies, has expressed reservations about the book’s conclusions, highlighting issues such as uncritical assumptions about eschatology and a potentially simplistic demonology.
Overall, Final Events is a provocative contribution to the discourse on UAPs, especially regarding interpretations that diverge from the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Readers interested in the intersection of government secrecy, the paranormal, and theological perspectives may find the book thought-provoking. However, it should be read with an awareness of its speculative nature and the challenges inherent in substantiating its claims.
Hugh Ross, Kenneth Samples, and Mark Clark: Lights in the Sky & Little Green Men: A Rational Christian Look at UFOs and Extraterrestrials offers a comprehensive examination of UFO phenomena through the lens of Christian theology and scientific inquiry. The authors aim to provide readers with a balanced perspective on topics such as extraterrestrial life, government involvement in UFO investigations, and the potential spiritual implications of UFO encounters.
The book is structured to address several key questions:
Existence of Extraterrestrial Life: The authors explore the scientific plausibility of life on other planets, considering factors such as the conditions necessary for life and the vastness of the universe.
Government Involvement: The book analyzes documented UFO sightings and the extent of governmental investigations into such phenomena, aiming to discern fact from speculation.
Spiritual Interpretations: The book delves into the relationship between UFO sightings and demonology, discussing whether some encounters might have spiritual or supernatural explanations.
Here’s an interesting passage from this book:
On the television or movie screen, spacecraft are free to fly without any limitations except those of their creators’ imagination. But in the real world, the laws of physics apply. It seems evident that RUFOs must be nonphysical because they disobey firmly established physical laws. Unlike physical entities, RUFOs typically exhibit the following characteristics:
1. RUFOs leave no physical artifacts, even after crashing.
2. They generate no sonic booms when they break the sound barrier, nor do they show any evidence of meeting with air resistance.
3. They may be seen but not photographed, or they may be photographed (though never with high resolution) but not seen. In fact, the resolution of a UFO image may change from one moment to the next.
4. RUFOs may be detected by radar but not seen, or they may be seen but not detected by radar.
5. They make impossibly sharp turns and sudden stops and impossibly rapid accelerations to speeds approaching fifteen thousand miles per hour.
6. RUFOs hover aboveground or harm buildings and trees without any movement of air—no downward rush or other movement counter to ambient air currents.
7. They change momentum without yielding an opposite change of momentum in matter or in an energy field either coupled to the object or in the vicinity of the object.
8. They change shape, size, and color at random.
9. RUFOs suddenly disappear and reappear, or they disintegrate and reintegrate.
10. They send no detectable electromagnetic signals.
11. They emit light that casts no shadows. They project light beams of finite length or emit some light that twinkles and other light that does not. They change the apparent color of people, objects, or vehicles they spotlight.
12. They sometimes remain indistinguishable in shape despite close observation.
13. RUFOs consistently succeed in evasive action, sometimes vanishing instantly or at other times seeming to enter the ground without leaving a trace.
14. They melt asphalt and metal objects, and burn grass and leaves, without fire or flame.
15. They physically injure and even kill human observers apart from any identifiable physical agent.
Utilizing their backgrounds in science, theology, and political science, Ross, Samples, and Clark integrate empirical research with scriptural analysis to offer a rational and faith-based perspective. They emphasize the importance of discernment and critical thinking when evaluating UFO-related claims, encouraging readers to consider scientific evidence and theological principles.
The authors also address the cultural fascination with UFOs, examining how media and popular beliefs have shaped public perception. They caution against uncritical acceptance of sensational claims and advocate for a thoughtful approach that considers multiple dimensions of the phenomena.
Overall, Lights in the Sky & Little Green Men is a thought-provoking resource for those interested in understanding UFOs from a Christian worldview. It provides insights that bridge the gap between faith and reason.
High-profile discussions of UFOs in government reports, media, and Hollywood have fueled speculation about what these phenomena genuinely are.
Should We Take the Demonic UFO Theory Seriously?
If we approach this scientifically, there is no concrete evidence that UFOs/UAPs are supernatural. The most rational explanation remains that these are a mix of military, natural, and psychological phenomena. Some UFO reports may be genuine unknowns or RUFOs, but that does not mean they are demons. However, Many UAP phenomena bear striking similarities to ancient supernatural encounters, suggesting that the same underlying experiences may have been interpreted differently across time.
